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Rationalising fanaticism
Jan Józef Lipski Social activist
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Ja do dzisiejszego dnia nie jestem w stanie zrozumieć tego: jak to się działo, jakie były tego mechanizmy i co to się działo. Staram się czytać każdą rzecz, która próbuje to analizować. No oczywiście zaczęło się od Miłosza, prawda. Ale czytałem całą masę innych rzeczy na ten temat, nawet i Cybulskiego, i Kestlera i akurat najmniej jest tego... tej literatury, która by pokazywała akurat to środowisko, które ja znałem, gdzie bym miał możność kontroli z własnym doświadczeniem. No, ale na przykład rozmowy z Miłoszem Balickiego właśnie o tym mówią. Jest to książka moim zdaniem ciekawa, ale nieprawdziwa. Nie zrozumiałem tego i obawiam się, że właściwie nigdy nie zrozumiem, a moim marzeniem byłoby przeczytać jakąś książkę, która by mi to wyjaśniła – to, co się wówczas działo. Jakiś straszliwy fanatyzm. I jednocześnie wiem z perspektywy tych lat, że wielu ludzi, którzy zostało z tego wyleczonych, stali się nie tylko ludźmi normalnymi, ale ich późniejsze zachowania się wskazują na to, że nie można tego przypisać wyłącznie niskim pobudkom, że niskie pobudki bardzo często odgrywały rolę; ale kto wie, czy nie równie często, jeżeli coś tu miały do powiedzenia, że tak powiem – to było to w sferze bardzo mało uświadamianej właściwie. Nie miało to charakteru cynicznego, w każdym razie. Spośród tych ludzi, którzy to przeżyli i z którymi na ten temat rozmawiałem, ci, którzy sami byli tym objęci... W tym co pisał, jeszcze najbardziej mi odpowiada to, co na ten temat, w... parokrotnie przy różnych okazjach, pisał Roman Zimand. Bo on przynajmniej nie próbuje heroizować tego wariactwa. I on ma to poczucie, że tam działały również inne motywacje. Nie prosta chęć zysku, nie prosta chęć kariery, ale motywacje, które są mimo to bliskie tego zakresu, na przykład chęć tego, żeby nie zostać wyrzuconym za burtę, żeby... tutaj coś „idzie ku świetlanej przyszłości, a ja zostanę na śmietniku historii”, prawda. Jest to trochę co innego niż takie bezpośrednio niskie motywy. Jest to jednak coś mimo wszystko pokrewnego ze względu na to, że tu zaczyna już być rozważanie jakiegoś interesu swojego osobistego. No, ale mimo wszystko do końca nie jest to wytłumaczone. No a wiemy, że temu towarzyszył terror. I dla mnie jest zawsze też sprawą niewyjaśnioną, kto o tym terrorze wiedział, w jakim zakresie wiedział i co wiedział. Jak zwykle człowiek lepiej poinformowany nie wierzy gorzej poinformowanym i uważa, że po prostu oni kłamią, mówiąc, że nie wiedzą. Ale ja należę do tych, którzy zawsze powiadają: „Na miły Bóg, dlaczego ja wszystko wiedziałem?”. No nie to, że akurat Iksińskiego 23 marca skatowali tak, że mu nerkę odbili. To nie o to chodzi. Ale wiedziałem, że Iksińskim w różne dni marca, kwietnia, maja odbijają nerki. I dlaczego ja to mogłem wiedzieć, a inni... a ci inni tego nie wiedzieli. Próbowali, pracowali może bardzo nad tym, żeby nie wiedzieć, ale mimo wszystko, to wszystko razem dla mnie... jest niewyjaśnione, a tak w odczuciu takim wewnętrznym, psychicznym to jest to poczucie jakiejś takiej ciemnej nocy. Takiej, w której trochę cienie widać przechodzących ludzi i w każdym momencie można zostać schwyconym przez wariata za gardło i uduszonym, uderzonym czymś ciężkim; to wcale nie dlatego, że chce mi zabrać portfel, tylko dlatego, że jest szalony. Ja się zawsze bardzo boję tego, żeby się nie znaleźć w ręku wariata.

How did this happen, what was the mechanism behind it, and what was it that was happening? I try to read everything that attempts to analyse it. I started with Miłosz, obviously. But I also read a whole lot of other things on this subject: Cybulski, Koestler, and very little has been written showing the kind of group that I knew and which I could have compared with my own experiences. However, Balicki's conversations with Miłosz are about this. The book is, I believe, interesting but not realistic. I didn't understand it and I'm afraid I'll never understand it, whereas my dearest wish is to read a book which will explain what was going on at that time. It was a terrible sort of fanaticism. I also know looking back after all these years... many people who were cured of this not only became normal people but their later behaviour shows that this can't be attributed only to base motives. Those base motives often played a role but who knows, if they also exerted an influence so to speak, whether that wasn't on a level that was barely perceived. In any case, it wasn't something cynical. From among the people who experienced this and with whom I talked about it, and those who themselves fell under its spell. The writings that appeal to me the most are among what Roman Zimand wrote at various times. He at least doesn't try to make that madness into anything heroic. He has the feeling that there were other motives at work. It wasn't just a straightforward desire for gain, nor for career advancement, although the motives weren't far off. For example, there was the desire not to be thrown overboard, that something here was ‘marching towards a glorious future while I was left behind on the scrapheap of history’. This is a bit different from the straightforward base motives although there is some similarity on account of the fact that it's showing the start of a reflection on personal interest. Nevertheless, it's not fully explained. And we know that it was accompanied by fear. Another thing that I find unclear is who knew about this fear, in what context did they know about it, and what did they know. As usual, someone who is better informed doesn't believe a person who knows less and imagines that he is lying when he says that he doesn't know. But I belong to those people who say, for God's sake, how is it that I knew about everything? Well not that on 23 March Joe Bloggs was beaten so badly that he lost a kidney. That's not the point. But I did know that on various days in March, April and May plenty of Joe Bloggses had their kidneys damaged. And how come I could know this while those others didn't? They tried, they worked hard at trying not to know but all the same, to me this remains unexplained, and on an inner level, psychologically, it has the feeling of a dark night about it. The kind of night where you can make out the shadows of passing individuals, but at any moment, a madman might grab you by the throat and strangle you or hit you with a heavy object, and not because he wants to take my wallet but because he is mad. I'm always very afraid of ending up in the hands of a madman.

Jan Józef Lipski (1926-1991) was one of Poland's best known political activists. He was also a writer and a literary critic. As a soldier in the Home Army (Armia Krajowa), he fought in the Warsaw Uprising. In 1976, following worker protests, he co-founded the Workers' Defence Committee (KOR). His active opposition to Poland's communist authorities led to his arrest and imprisonment on several occasions. In 1987, he re-established and headed the Polish Socialist Party. Two years later, he was elected to the Polish Senate. He died in 1991 while still in office. For his significant work, Lipski was honoured with the Cross of the Valorous (Krzyż Walecznych), posthumously with the Grand Cross of the Order of Polonia Restituta (1991) and with the highest Polish decoration, the Order of the White Eagle (2006).

Listeners: Jacek Petrycki Marcel Łoziński

Cinematographer Jacek Petrycki was born in Poznań, Poland in 1948. He has worked extensively in Poland and throughout the world. His credits include, for Agniezka Holland, Provincial Actors (1979), Europe, Europe (1990), Shot in the Heart (2001) and Julie Walking Home (2002), for Krysztof Kieslowski numerous short films including Camera Buff (1980) and No End (1985). Other credits include Journey to the Sun (1998), directed by Jesim Ustaoglu, which won the Golden Camera 300 award at the International Film Camera Festival, Shooters (2000) and The Valley (1999), both directed by Dan Reed, Unforgiving (1993) and Betrayed (1995) by Clive Gordon both of which won the BAFTA for best factual photography. Jacek Petrycki is also a teacher and a filmmaker.

Film director Marcel Łoziński was born in Paris in 1940. He graduated from the Film Directing Department of the National School of Film, Television and Theatre in Łódź in 1971. In 1994, he was nominated for an American Academy Award and a European Film Academy Award for the documentary, 89 mm from Europe. Since 1995, he has been a member of the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Science awarding Oscars. He lectured at the FEMIS film school and the School of Polish Culture of Warsaw University. He ran documentary film workshops in Marseilles. Marcel Łoziński currently lectures at Andrzej Wajda’s Master School for Film Directors. He also runs the Dragon Forum, a European documentary film workshop.

Tags: Czesław Milosz, Roman Zimand, Arthur Koestler

Duration: 4 minutes, 20 seconds

Date story recorded: October 1989

Date story went live: 09 March 2011