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Surviving two attempted assassinations

RELATED STORIES

Edward Said
Uri Avnery Social activist
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מראיינת: היה לך איזה ויכוח עם אדוארד סעיד?‏

אדוארד סעיד היה האינטלקטואל הפלסטיני בה״א הידיעה. באיזשהו שלב, לפני שהכירו באש"ף, הקהילה הבינלאומית, האמריקאים זאת אומרת, העלו את הרעיון לנהל את המו"מ בין ישראל ובין שלושה אינטלקטואלים שייצגו את העם הפלסטיני, מכיוון שאש"ף היה ארגון טרוריסטי וכו'. אז בין השלושה אחד היה חלאדי, איש נהדר, אחד, שכחתי את שמו, ואדוארד סעיד. אדוארד סעיד כתב ספר חשוב שנקרא "ערבסקות",

מראיינת: "האוריינטליסטים".

סליחה, "אוריינטליזם", על הדרך שבה האירופים רגילים לראות את הערבים, את האיסלאם, את האוריינט, והיום זה נכנס ללכסיקון המדעי. והיה לו לוקמיה. כל הזמן ידענו שהוא יש לו סרטן הדם וזה, חייו מוגבלים, והוא היה אדם בסך הכל סימפטי. אבל, הייתה לו שנאה עמוקה ביותר ליאסר ערפאת. יכול להיות שהיו לזה מניעים פסיכולוגיים, מפני שהוא כאילו עמד לנהל את המו"מ בשם העם הפלסטיני ובא אש"ף ולקח את התפקיד ממנו, אולי. על כל פנים הייתה שנאה עמוקה, ואני הייתי אוהד של ערפאת, וחשבתי שזה המנהיג הכי טוב שהפלסטינים יכולים לזכות בו. והתפתח בינינו אנטגוניזם לא נעים, הוא דיבר נגדי מכל מיני במות, עיתונים וכתבי-עת. אני אף פעם לא דיברתי נגדו. והזדמנו יחד, זה היה בלונדון. בלונדון יש מוסד מאוד-מאוד יוקרתי בשם "המכון ליחסים בינלאומיים", לא האמריקאי, שגם הוא מכובד ויוקרתי, הלונדוני. ויום אחד הם הזמינו אותו ואותי לכנס, לדיון. תמיד דיון מאוד רציני במוסד הזה, והוא התחיל להשמיץ את ערפאת ואני התחלתי להגן על ערפאת. נוצר מצב כמעט קומי, כמעט מצחיק – הנה הישראלי מגן על ערפאת והערבי משמיץ אותו. וממש התחילה איבה גלויה בינו וביני בלונדון. אכלנו יחד בכל זאת וכו'. למוסד האמריקאי גם הוזמנתי פעם, אין קשר בין השניים, אבל המכון ליחסים בינלאומיים, Foreign Relations בניו יורק הזמין אותי יחד עם עורך אל פאג'ר, הנוצרי, סניורה. סניורה, שאתו הייתי מיודד והפגנתי מול המערכת שלו כשרצו לסגור את העיתון, אל פאג'ר, הזמינו את שנינו, ישראלי וערבי, והופענו יחד ובקהל ישבה אשה קשישה שלא הכרתי. בסוף הכירו לי אותה וזו הייתה ברברה טוכמן, טקמן, שכתבה כמה ספרים היסטוריים נהדרים. אני ממש הייתי חסיד נלהב שלה, נעים שככה מוצאים בקהל אנשים ברמה הזאת, אבל זה רק דרך אגב.‏

[Q] Did you have some kind of argument with Edward Said?

Edward Said was a Palestinian intellectual par excellence. At some point, before they knew about the PLO, the international community – in other words the Americans – came up with the idea of conducting negotiations between Israel and the three intellectuals representing the Palestinian people because the PLO was a terrorist organization and so on. Among the three was Khaled, a great person, then someone whose name I forget, and Edward Said. Edward Said wrote an important book called Arabesques.

[Q] Orientalism.

Sorry, Orientalism, about the way in which Europeans are accustomed to perceiving the Arabs, Islam, the Orient, and now it has entered the scientific lexicon. He had leukaemia. We knew all the time that he had cancer of the blood and that his life was ending. He was altogether a very likeable person. But, he had a profound hatred of Yasser Arafat. There may have been other psychological motives, because he was supposed to be negotiating on behalf of the Palestinian people, then the PLO came and took the job away from him – perhaps that was it. In any event there was a deep hatred, while I was an admirer of Arafat and thought he was the best leader that the Palestinians could have. We developed an unpleasant antagonism. He spoke against me from all kinds of platforms, newspapers and magazines. I never spoke against him. On one occasion, we were together in London where there is a very, very prestigious institution known as the Institute of International Affairs – not the American one, which is also very respected and prestigious, but the one in London. One day, they invited him and me to a conference, for a discussion. There were always very serious discussions at this institution, and he started to slander Arafat while I started to defend Arafat. It created a situation which was almost comical, almost funny: here was an Israeli defending Arafat while an Arab was slandering him. And truly open hostility started to build between him and me in London. We ate together, nonetheless. The American Institute also invited me once. There is no connection between the two, but the Institute of Foreign Relations in New York invited me together with the editor of Al Fajr, the Christian, Siniora, with whom I was friendly and had demonstrated in front of his newspaper, Al Fajr, when they wanted to close it. They invited the two of us, an Israeli and an Arab, and we appeared together. There was an elderly woman in the audience whom I didn't recognize. Eventually I was introduced to her and it was Barbara Tuchman, who has written several wonderful historical books. I really was a very keen follower of hers, it's very pleasant to find people at this level in the audience, but that was only by chance.

Uri Avnery (1923-2018) was an Israeli writer, journalist and founder of the Gush Shalom peace movement. As a teenager, he joined the Zionist paramilitary group, Irgun. Later, Avnery was elected to the Knesset from 1965 to 1974 and from 1979 to 1981. He was also the editor-in-chief of the weekly news magazine, 'HaOlam HaZeh' from 1950 until it closed in 1993. He famously crossed the lines during the Siege of Beirut to meet Yasser Arafat on 3 July 1982, the first time the Palestinian leader ever met with an Israeli. Avnery was the author of several books about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including '1948: A Soldier's Tale, the Bloody Road to Jerusalem' (2008); 'Israel's Vicious Circle' (2008); and 'My Friend, the Enemy' (1986).

Listeners: Anat Saragusti

Anat Saragusti is a film-maker, book editor and a freelance journalist and writer. She was a senior staff member at the weekly news magazine Ha'olam Hazeh, where she was prominent in covering major events in Israel. Uri Avnery was the publisher and chief editor of the Magazine, and Saragusti worked closely with him for over a decade. With the closing of Ha'olam Hazeh in 1993, Anat Saragusti joined the group that established TV Channel 2 News Company and was appointed as its reporter in Gaza. She later became the chief editor of the evening news bulletin. Concurrently, she studied law and gained a Master's degree from Tel Aviv University.

Tags: Institute of International Affairs, Edward Said, Yasser Arafat, Barbara Tuchman

Duration: 5 minutes, 52 seconds

Date story recorded: October 2015

Date story went live: 26 June 2017