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Leszek Kołakowski

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Czesław Miłosz
Aleksander Smolar Political scientist
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Siedziałem obok Miłosza i on często chichotał, miał dystans. To znaczy on patrzył bardziej na zachowanie ludzi, niż na to, co mówili. W czasie konferencji nie zabierał głosu, był taki wieczór wspólny właśnie poezji Miłosza i wtedy on czytał swoje wiersze dla zebranych. Można powiedzieć, że to był jego udział w tej konferencji. Bardzo rzecz ciekawa – on właściwie nie chciał czytać dwóch wierszy, na których... na których Żydom najbardziej zależało: Biedny chrześcijanin patrzy na getto... czy ja się mylę? I Campo dei Fiori. Jeden, który porównywał właśnie śmierć, spalenie Bruno na... I z tą śmiercią w getcie, i równocześnie tam były zdania w tym wierszu, które były często przedmiotem dyskusji w Polsce, mianowicie o tym wesołym miasteczku przy murze getta i jak to właśnie po polskiej stronie ludzie się bawili, łapiąc te palące się resztki, które na drugą stronę muru przenikały. On nie chciał tego czytać, to ciekawe było. Ciekawe i nie wiem, dlaczego. Ja myślę po prostu, że z czysto poetyckiego punktu widzenia oceniał nie najlepiej te wiersze. One były w jakimś sensie za bardzo zaangażowane. Ale nie wiem. Nie znam odpowiedzi na to pytanie i ja tego pytania mu nie zadałem.

I was sitting next to Miłosz and he'd frequently giggle yet he kept a distance meaning that he was looking more at peoples' behaviour and what they were saying. He didn't speak at the conference. There was a social evening and Miłosz's poetry… he read some of his poetry to people there. You could say that was his contribution to that conference. Interestingly, there were two poems that he didn't want to read but which the Jews were very keen to hear. Namely, there's a Jewish poem in which a poor Christian is looking at the ghetto… is that right? Campo di Fiori. There were two, one which compared the death of, the burning of Bruno… I'm getting my words muddled… with the death in the ghetto and at the same time, there were comments, sentences in that poem which were a frequent topic of debate in Poland, namely about the fun fair erected right by the ghetto boundary wall where people were amusing themselves by catching the burning fragments that were floating over the wall. Interestingly, he didn't want to read that. I don't know why. I think that simply from a poetic point of view he didn't rate those poems very highly. They were in a sense too intensely involved. But I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question and it was a question I never asked him.

Aleksander Smolar (b. 1940) is a Polish writer, political activist and adviser, vice-president of the Institute for Human Sciences and president of the Stefan Batory Foundation.

Listeners: Vitek Tracz

Vitek Tracz is a London-based entrepreneur who has been involved in science publishing, pharmaceutical information and mobile phone-based navigation.

Tags: Campo di Fiori, Czesław Miłosz

Duration: 2 minutes, 6 seconds

Date story recorded: September 2017

Date story went live: 20 December 2018