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Political divisions among writers

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No one had an unblemished past
Julia Hartwig Poet
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[Q] A z pewnością Artur Międzyrzecki będąc, tak jak Pani mówi w Armii Andersa spotkał... tam spotkał Herlinga-Grudzińskiego?

Oczywiście spotkał i Herlinga, i Giedroycia, tak.  

[Q] I jak Pani z dzisiejszej perspektywy – co mówił na to Międzyrzecki – widzi właśnie tą cechę, która łączyła i Herlinga, i... i Herlinga, i Herberta, to taki jakiś... taki nagły, zajadły – wyciąganie tych nieprzyjemnych prawd o pewnych pisarzach, którzy no, coś tam popełnili, prawda, to nie to, ale ta zajadłość ich, i jednego, i drugiego w tych, w tym...

Naprawdę to było, myśmy naprawdę cierpieli z tego powodu i myśląc na ten temat, że właściwie robi się... dzieje się wielka krzywda i jakiś straszny nonsens historyczny także, bo przypisywać ludziom... No, przeszli... prawie wszyscy ludzie, którzy potem byli w opozycji – w każdym razie wielu z nich – było członkami partii kiedyś. Po prostu nie dlatego, bo... bo nie było już warto się sprzedawać – nie można powiedzieć, że ktoś się sprzedał z przekonania; dlatego, że to nic nie dawało – dawało tylko reperkusje, na przykład nie... nie drukować, wzywać na... nękać spotkaniami. Na przykład Artur był bardzo często wzywany gdzieś. Raz pamiętam, że właściwie czekałam pod siedzibą UB na niego, on był tam wezwany i nie chciałam go jakoś... chciałam się zorientować czy wyjdzie, czy nie wyjdzie, bo to nigdy nie było wiadomo. To było tam przy Puławskiej, nie wiem, nie pamiętam, jak ta ulica się nazywa, ten... No i... no więc, po prostu nie... nie było warto, ale po prostu powiem szczerze, że... że to już, że... że Herbert miał pewne skłonności prawicowe, które – co nie jest grzechem – natomiast to, jak się to wyraziło w naszych stosunkach, to już zaczynało być bardzo niepokojące, zwłaszcza w stadium, kiedy on już bardzo był chory i wzywał do siebie ludzi z tej „Solidarności”, która była prowadzona już przez ludzi, którzy nigdy z „Solidarnością” nie mieli nic wspólnego i właściwie wydawał im rozkazy. Takie... to były takie... takie interludia jakieś w tych stosunkach.

[Q] Artur Międzyrzecki, having been, as you said yourself, in General Anders' army must have met Herling-Grudziński there.

Of course. He met Herling and he met Giedroyc, yes.

[Q] So how do you see, looking back on it today, what Międzyrzecki said, the characteristic that linked Herling and... Herling and Herbert that sort of sudden, vicious exposure of unpleasant truths about certain authors who perhaps had committed some misdemeanor, but it wasn't so much that as the viciousness of both one and the other in these...

This really was... we really suffered because of this, and when I think about it, it is very damaging and a nonsense historically speaking to assign to people... Almost everybody who was later in the opposition, or at least many of them, had once belonged to the party. Not because... it wasn't worth selling yourself any more, you couldn't say that anyone sold themselves out of conviction because it gave nothing, all that it gave were repercussions, for instance, not publishing, summons, being plagued by meetings. For instance, Artur was always being summoned to places and I remember once that I was waiting for him outside the secret police head quarters because that's where he'd been summoned, and I didn't want him to... I wanted to know if he'd come out or not because you could never be certain. It was by Puławska Street, I don't know, I can't remember the name of that street. And so, simply, it wasn't worth it... but I'll honestly say that... Herbert had certain right-wing tendencies which aren't a sin, but when it began to express itself in our relations with him, then it began to be very unnerving, particularly the stage when he was already very ill and he would summon people from Solidarity which was being led by people who'd never had anything to do with Solidarity, and he would give them orders. There were... there were lapses in this relationship.

Born to a Polish father and a Russian mother, Julia Hartwig (1921-2017) was a Polish poet, essayist, translator and author of children's books. She studied at the University of Warsaw, the Catholic University in Lublin and the Jagiellonian University in Kraków. Czesław Miłosz called her 'the grande dame of Polish poetry'. Julia Hartwig was one of the few poets in Poland who made masterly use of poetic prose. She translated poems by Apollinaire, Rimbaud, Max Jacob, Cendrars and Supervielle, and published monographs on Apollinaire and Gerard de Nerval. She also translated from English, and published a large anthology of American poetry which she co-edited in 1992 with her late husband, the poet Artur Międzyrzecki.

Listeners: Andrzej Wolski

Film director and documentary maker, Andrzej Wolski has made around 40 films since 1982 for French television, the BBC, TVP and other TV networks. He specializes in portraits and in historical films. Films that he has directed or written the screenplay for include Kultura, which he co-directed with Agnieszka Holland, and KOR which presents the history of the Worker’s Defence Committee as told by its members. Andrzej Wolski has received many awards for his work, including the UNESCO Grand Prix at the Festival du Film d’Art.

Tags: Polska Zjednoczona Partia Robotnicza, PZPR, Polish United Workers' Party, Puławska Street, Solidarity, Artur Międzyrzecki, Gustaw Herling-Grudziński, Jerzy Giedroyc, Zbigniew Herbert

Duration: 2 minutes, 20 seconds

Date story recorded: June 2010

Date story went live: 15 June 2011