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My attitude towards Jews

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A fear of imprisonment
Jacek Kuroń Social activist
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This is the moment when the Jewish issue begins. It is of fundamental importance to me, to my life because I came into very close contact with it firstly, because various friends of my parents, meaning my friends, kids I played with in the courtyard, secondly, because my parents were active in some organisation that provided help for Jews and thirdly, because all of this together, this help they provided, had to be clandestine, hidden, which doesn't mean that I didn't know about it because all manner of Jews came to our flat and passed through it. I knew virtually everything, I tried to know about everything. That's when I had the notion that I was meant to be involved in underground activities. So I used to eavesdrop and spy on what was going on. I knew where they kept the pamphlets hidden, I knew when they were buying weapons, I knew how much they paid for them, because the Italians were selling weapons for silver. I used to eavesdrop on my father when he was negotiating the purchase of these weapons. However, my father would always say, 'Try not to know because they'll take you, torture you and you'll spill the beans'. I was really scared of that, I was afraid I'd give everything away so I resorted to all kinds of tricks. I used to push those things under my fingernails, matches under my fingernails, I'd cut myself, burn myself and each time the pain would paralyse me and I was afraid that I'd betray everyone. I had an obsession with torture, an obsession that I'd break down. This lasted for a very long time. Even now, when I was in prison I had this... if they start beating me, I'll drop everyone in it. This lasted until I developed kidney stones in prison. I was told it was the most intense pain known to medicine. So then I... each time I had an attack I wondered if I'd break and each time I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't. That's when I lost my complex, although later I realised that the most intense pain known to medicine, wasn't the intensest pain that man can inflict on man, but in the meantime, this whole story had passed into my subconscious. So it sort of dropped away from me and I'm not so scared any more today. I repeat, I wasn't afraid of the torture just of dropping people in it.

Ale w tym momencie zaczyna się sprawa żydowska, która ma dla mnie zasadnicze znaczenie, dla mojego życia jak myślę, dlatego że no dane mi było niesłychanie mocno o nią otrzeć – po pierwsze dlatego, że znajomi moich rodziców różni – znaczy moi znajomi, koledzy z podwórka; po drugie dlatego, że rodzice działali w jakiejś takiej zorganizowanej akcji pomocy Żydom, i po trzecie dlatego, że to wszystko razem, że ta cała pomoc ich, no była z konieczności ukryta, niejawna, to nie znaczy, że ja o niej nie wiedziałem, bo przecież Żydzi byli u nas w mieszkaniu różni, przechodzili przez nie. Ja wiedziałem właściwie wszystko, ja się w ogóle starałem wiedzieć wszystko, miałem wtedy taki pomysł, że właśnie, że mam brać udział w podziemnym działaniu. Więc podsłuchiwałem, podpatrywałem. Wiedziałem gdzie chowają gazetki, wiedziałem kiedy kupowali broń, wiedziałem za ile tę broń, bo Włosi sprzedawali broń za srebro. I podsłuchiwałem jeszcze jakieś transakcje ojca z tą bronią. Natomiast ojciec mi zawsze mówił: "Staraj się nie dowiedzieć, dlatego no bo wezmą cię, zaczną cię torturować i wszystko wyśpiewas". No to ja rzeczywiście tego wszystkiego bardzo się bałem, a bałem się, że wydam, w związku z tym robiłem różne sztuki. Wbijałem se paznokcie pod te... zapałki pod paznokcie, rżnąłem, przypalałem się i ten ból mnie porażał za każdym razem i bałem się tego, że wydam. I miałem taką obsesję tortur, obsesję tego, że się załamię. I to tak trwało we mnie niesłychanie długo. Jeszcze teraz w więzieniu miałem takie, no jakby tak zaczęli tłuc, to przecież bym zasypał. I to aż do tego, kiedy w więzieniu miałem kamicę nerkową, powiedziano mi, że to jest największy ból jaki zna medycyna. No to ja się przy każdym ataku kamicy mierzyłem, czy bym zasypał i za każdym razem dochodziłem do wniosku, że teraz bym nie zasypał. I to mi tak spadło, ten kompleks ze mnie. Choć później dopiero zdałem sobie sprawę, że największy ból, jaki zna medycyna, to nie największy ból jaki człowiek może wymyślić człowiekowi, no ale w międzyczasie już mi... przecież podświadoma cała ta historia była. Więc jakoś mi tak spadła ze mnie, dziś już tak bardzo się nie boję. Powtarzam, ja się cały czas bałem nie tortur, tylko tego, że zasypię.

The late Polish activist, Jacek Kuroń (1934-2004), had an influential but turbulent political career, helping transform the political landscape of Poland. He was expelled from the communist party, arrested and incarcerated. He was also instrumental in setting up the Workers' Defence Committee (KOR) and later became a Minister of Labour and Social Policy.

Listeners: Marcel Łoziński Jacek Petrycki

Film director Marcel Łoziński was born in Paris in 1940. He graduated from the Film Directing Department of the National School of Film, Television and Theatre in Łódź in 1971. In 1994, he was nominated for an American Academy Award and a European Film Academy Award for the documentary, 89 mm from Europe. Since 1995, he has been a member of the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Science awarding Oscars. He lectured at the FEMIS film school and the School of Polish Culture of Warsaw University. He ran documentary film workshops in Marseilles. Marcel Łoziński currently lectures at Andrzej Wajda’s Master School for Film Directors. He also runs the Dragon Forum, a European documentary film workshop.

Cinematographer Jacek Petrycki was born in Poznań, Poland in 1948. He has worked extensively in Poland and throughout the world. His credits include, for Agniezka Holland, Provincial Actors (1979), Europe, Europe (1990), Shot in the Heart (2001) and Julie Walking Home (2002), for Krysztof Kieslowski numerous short films including Camera Buff (1980) and No End (1985). Other credits include Journey to the Sun (1998), directed by Jesim Ustaoglu, which won the Golden Camera 300 award at the International Film Camera Festival, Shooters (2000) and The Valley (1999), both directed by Dan Reed, Unforgiving (1993) and Betrayed (1995) by Clive Gordon both of which won the BAFTA for best factual photography. Jacek Petrycki is also a teacher and a filmmaker.

Tags: parents, prison, pain, torture

Duration: 2 minutes, 47 seconds

Date story recorded: 1987

Date story went live: 12 June 2008